Only ‘Ellen’s’ label stays a mystery, here seems to be zero-one to called Ellen otherwise Helen, except perhaps a keen ‘Eleanor’ for the Joanna’s front (Eleanor out-of Aquitaine, mommy of Joanna’s dad King John)
Hey, visitors. It’s it’s interesting; the thing i wouldn’t has actually made available to have access to this post twenty-five years ago whenever i is actually researching and you may composing Here Be Dragons!
The primary reason for so it workout is to use, by a glance at genealogist’s views about the subject and also by consulting specific recognized brand-new present, to determine who was simply the caretaker out-of Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Are she Joanna, wife out-of Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Born circa.1188, passed away. March 1237) otherwise is actually she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch out-of Rhos, mistress from Llywelyn, created circa. 1168, died??
I will stick to this which have a secondary data into the you’ll existence regarding a great ded Susanna, considering off to Queen Henry 111 as the a beneficial hostage in the 1228 along with her custody getting supplied in order to Sir Nicholas Verdun and his partner Clementia.
The fresh opinions of your own Genealogists that we has studied are just you to definitely, views, as well as differ greatly. Zero specified proof is available in any event, but have to say that the majority hold getting Gwladus become new child regarding Joanna. This is also true of genealogists of descendants of the De- Braose family members, but they ily as linked with both the Welsh and you may English regal households!
The list following out-of Llywelyn’s several legitimate and you may illegitimate youngsters looks to get essentially approved by the the genealogists that i has learned except for distinctions over if or not number 9 extremely existed. The fresh new schedules out of birth the following are also disputed by some:
- Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, produced circa.1199, passed away 1244
- Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, produced circa.1206, passed away 1251
- Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1206? passed away circa 1253,
- Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1208? died circa 1263,
- Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince out of Wales, created circa 1208 (1211?) (doubts about this day, come across later on), passed away twenty five February 1246,
- Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1209 passed away 1281.
- Angharad ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1210, passed away 1257
- Tegwared ap Llywelyn – born circa 1210, you’ll twin to help you Angharad?
- ‘Helen’, or ‘Susanna’, produced circa 1214? Died 1259?
There can be much disagreement along side label of one’s mothers regarding these youngsters. There was general contract your only specific youngsters out of Llywelyn’s elizabeth Prince off Wales and you may Ellen (Helen) who married (1) John the newest Scot, son of your own earl away from Chester and you will (2) Robert de- Quincy. Regardless if view is divided over the moms and dads regarding Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and you may Susanna, the vast majority of genealogists We have studied slim towards the their mother being Joanna.
This is certainly partially due to their heading times from beginning just like the better since their marriages to various marcher lords just who, you to definitely supposes, will have found to https://brightwomen.net/no/libanesiske-kvinner/ help you fall into line their houses compared to that of their neighbor, the brand new Prince off Northern Wales with his partner, the fresh queen out of England’s child. It’s believed these lords of February won’t have seen plenty attention otherwise political motivation when you look at the marrying regarding its sons for the illegitimate daughters from a beneficial Welsh prince which have a beneficial Welsh woman.
As to what names of these children, whether or not of the Joanna, Tangwystl or others, they certainly were every called immediately after members of Llywelyn’s family members:
Ken, we are entirely in your personal debt
Llywelyn’s mom are named ‘ed ‘Susanna’ off Gwynedd. Their paternal grandma are titled ‘Gwladus’. Mom and dad out-of his grandma Susanna, have been ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and you can ‘Angharad’ out of Flint and you can both their labels were given to help you Llywelyn’s children. Which Susanna and additionally had an aunt named ‘Gwenllian’, a comparable title given that Llywelyn’s great grandmother.